Alternative Spirituality

» Migisi - Slavery

In response to Slavery posted by spiritalk:
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Why is it a suffering world?
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Um, perhaps this Christian attitude is part of the problem?
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"...they should not become focused or obsessed with fighting for social and economic equality while on this earth, but rather should focus on proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
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-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Don't twist what I'm saying

In response to Slavery posted by Migisi:

I clearly referenced Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, and Gandhi as "great men" who serve as examples for us about making positive contributions to better society.

Do NOT take sentences I wrote in isolation - and then start building interpretive schemes off of them.

(Come to think of it - that's what a lot of people do with the Bible, which of course is a much more serious offense - since what I write is NOWHERE NEAR on that level).

I want to state for the record that I do not believe we should sit back with a fatalistic attitude and say: "This is just a world of suffering...oh well." I never said that or implied that.

For me (and I think this is what Paul was also pushing), it's more a "don't lose sight of the forest for the trees." In other words, don't become so focused on the SYMPTOMS that you forget the disease.

» Brian Tubbs - Gay Civil Rights

This thread is of course supposed to be about gay civil rights. I don't want to be the one responsible for getting us off-track. I am happy to discuss the Bible, Paul, slavery, etc. with anyone - but perhaps a new thread would be appropriate on those subjects.

Bringing this back to gay civil rights, I think it's important for us to distinguish between legal rights, social acceptance, and issues of religion. These are three distinct (albeit overlapping) areas of concern here with respect to gays and lesbians.

Examples of that distinction would be:

A homosexual man is not allowed to vote, hold office, or publish a newspaper - CIVIL RIGHTS.

A mother refuses to accept her daughter's lesbianism and attend her same-sex wedding ceremony -- SOCIAL ACCEPTANCE

A church refuses to ordain a gay pastor -- RELIGIOUS ISSUE

So...the overall term "gay civil rights" is loaded and is sometimes thought to include all these areas. It shouldn't. In my opinion, "gay civil rights" should be restricted to a person's relationship with the state.

I do not believe the government should have authority to force families to accept homosexuality, nor should the government get involved in religious organizations. If the separation of church and state means anything, it means that the government should do nothing to meddle in churches, synagogues, or mosques.

» Jolinda - Gay Civil Rights

In response to Gay Civil Rights posted by BrianTubbs:

"If the separation of church and state means anything, it means that the government should do nothing to meddle in churches, synagogues, or mosques. "

So why can the government "meddle" in churches that feel they have a moral imperative to marry gays by preventing them to do so?

-- posted by Jolinda

» pink101 - Gay Civil Rights

In response to Gay Civil Rights posted by Jolinda:
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By "they" do you mean the churches, the government, or the gays.
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I saw a bit on the boob tube today highlighting a marriage between two women that have been living together for 30 years. It was in New Jersey which apparently has only recently legalized same sex marriage.
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I thought, "Why not? They have a life to live just like the rest of us.". I guess I'm having a problem trying to sort that out in my head. I don't want my children to grow up homosexual; but, when you get right down to it, it's their life. They ought to be able to make their own choices. Hopefully, I would raise them wisely so that they can get the most out of the time they have here on earth.
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I hear that the Afghanistanians chop the heads off people for being homosexual.
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-- posted by pink101

» jcredmond - Gay Civil Rights

In response to Gay Civil Rights posted by pink101:
"I saw a bit on the boob tube today highlighting a marriage between two women that have been living together for 30 years. It was in New Jersey which apparently has only recently legalized same sex marriage."

My own view is one of live and let live. If two people care for each other that they want to step up and marry each other, it doesn't make any difference to me if they happen to be of the same gender.

It just doesn't seem right somehow that you can have couples who have been together for many years who aren't recognized as being each other's next of kin for medical decisions or legal matters.

-- posted by jcredmond

» pink101 - Gay Civil Rights

In response to Gay Civil Rights posted by jcredmond:
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For any reason.
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Do you have relatives in Saginaw, Michigan. There's a whole slew of Redmonds over there.
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-- posted by pink101

» RichardSpeaks - Gay Civil Rights

In response to Gay Civil Rights posted by BrianTubbs:
As a New Thought minister, I have performed joining ceremonies for folks of every persuasion except Muslim. What I find interesting is that the same people who want to keep the State from recognizing same-sex unions would not sanction gay/lesbian people who would choose to quit paying taxes since they cannot secure the same rights as other enjoined couples. Marriage until quite recently was a civil and economic act with the woman being handed over to the husband by parents or other guardians. Dowries were paid, and the woman was then the property of the husband, and in many cases, the husband's family upon the husband's demise. The Church supported that system until it was forced to capitulate in the 20th Century. It still preaches wife obedience, even if it is no longer legally sanctioned.

It would take many pages to truly explain the history of marriage. Suffice it to say, it is in the best interest of the State to have people enjoined, set up families, and keep the System operating as close to a status quo as possible. And since that is the case, the Church should keep its nose out of it.

What?

The Church wants the State to keep its nose out of church business; the same should work in reverse. Or are some more equal than others?

One caveat: why would gay people want to enter into a system of legal joining that falls apart in the majority of cases? Have they not learned from the heteros' mistakes??

-- posted by RichardSpeaks

» jcredmond - Gay Civil Rights

In response to Gay Civil Rights posted by pink101:
Not that I know of. I married into the Redmond family and my husband's relatives don't have a lot of information about his father's side of the family. I do know he has relatives in Ireland, though.

-- posted by jcredmond

» pink101 - Gay Civil Rights

In response to Gay Civil Rights posted by jcredmond:
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The Saginaw Redmonds are a pretty industrious bunch. They developed an automobile repair and automotive audio business. They have done quite well.
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-- posted by pink101